Air Supers

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Post by BladedgeX on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:29 am

So I had this idea about how an aerial super would work in a All-StarsxSmash Bros. environment taking a bit of inspiration from Dissidia. So, in summery, my idea is that only Lvl 2's and 3's can be performed in the air (mainly lvl 2s), while lvl 1s remain grounded. Aerial Lvl 2s can also be either different or a variant of the grounded Lvl 2 super. For Example, Jak can have his Dark bomb set as his aerial Lvl 2 while having another completely different super for his grounded lvl 2. They can also be used to recover back on stage such as Spike's super from Million Monkeys or Mewtwo can travel a short distance and then perform Psystrike. However, these supers will have Helpless states when performed in the air. 

Spike Super @3:00:

However, the cons of aerial supers are that Lvl 3s may be quite unnecessary to performed in the air as they still perform the same function regardless and that it can potentially make aerial supers much better than grounded supers with potentially short start-up.
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Post by Count Mario on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:39 am

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Post by this_is_marko on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:00 am

good stuff man.  I think that'll really make the game intense.  So essentially every character would have 4 supers? (level 1, ground level 2, air level 2, and level 3)
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Post by god-of-paradise on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:02 am

I always wondered what it would be like if supers could be used in the air in pasbr. I agree with Count when he says "I like it a lot" lol

What if kratos had his vertical tornado still be the same thing grounded.. but when you jumped and activated it, the tornado would slam downwards instead. It would make for some very interesting tactics!
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Post by Count Mario on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:12 am

^ I like how you're thinking, God. And if, say, Cole has the Ionic Drain for his Level 2 in this game, he can just levitate in the air with the attack range being shaped as a circle around him (the circumference and area would have to be smaller than expected since having it double the size of when it's used on the ground means that it'll be spammed a lot in midair).
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Post by god-of-paradise on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:38 am

oooo and because the super could possibly change even from its original concept.. it could expand upon said character to their original games! 

Remember how jak was having some negative criticism thrown at him for having his dark bomb instead of some better known super attacks? well this could solve the problem by simply adding (and of course balancing to be just as effective as dark bomb but with a different tactic) that air spin finisher he uses in jak 2 as dark jak.
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Post by Count Mario on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:48 am

Exactly! And that "spin move" is called the Dark Blast, by the way.
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:27 am

This is a good idea. You can make it really hard to plant but when it does what if the foe doesn't die until he hits the ground (as I doubt all supers will be Air-Ground) meaning with placement you can get a super spike kill (the supers can have max velocity) allowing for a plus 3 kill but will leave you helpless if you whiff it. 

I wish it included 1s but I understand why it doesn't. Having lvl 2s as a godly recovery move as well would make for a very deep game, it would increase the depth ten fold.
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Post by DP on Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:41 pm

I know Blade and I were discussing this earlier, and when he mentioned Jak I immediately thought about how Dark Bomb could be edited for an aerial: No start-up time or stun, quicker release, and smaller radius of impact.

The key here is that there would be no ONLY Air 2s, like so many people suggested back during PSAS's heyday. They'd all simply be variations on a theme, with the air variant acting as a recovery and perhaps the missing counter to Meteor Bursts. The only problem then is that you couldn't recover until you had a 2, so another recovery is still needed somewhere.
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Post by Neß on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:00 pm

Make it if you press the up and b keys on your keyboard, you automatically recover.
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Post by Fabsta1994 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:38 pm

Eeeeh I dunno. While it does sound interesting it may make it all the more irritating with ToD.
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Post by DP on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:42 pm

I don't think any character can ToD into a lvl2, Fab. Dante used to have a combo that long but I believe they removed it.

Needless to say, I will be trying as hard as I can to avoid any ToD combos in Axis
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:54 pm

Of course it would be the same theme DP. For Jak, the theme could be Dark Powers meaning you can have drastically different supers in the theme. Cole could use Ionic Drain in the Air and Freeze on the Ground. But of course you need more recovery and spikes, I feel this should be a sort of super spike. It gives an actual reason for some characters to use a two. Normal 2s are worth plus 2 per kill, can hit multiple times, air 2s are worth plus 3 (both -1/2 as if a super kill depending on your system) but will kill only 1 (personally for spike air 2s I'd make the flight path of the foe deadly and recovery 2s has your path deadly.)

No Neb that's a maping issue and the game is intended for pad (DS4?) 

Fabsta.. no character can build to a two, on one combo, minus infinites thanks to bursts. that's why there's only lvl 2s being brought up. although killing combos will exist it won't be huge, it gives a great smash/all stars feel.
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Post by Fabsta1994 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:58 pm

DP wrote:I don't think any character can ToD into a lvl2, Fab. Dante used to have a combo that long but I believe they removed it.

Needless to say, I will be trying as hard as I can to avoid any ToD combos in Axis
They can if a certain character has a loop.
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:05 pm

Loops are unintentional and will get removed no character has a loop that's meant to be there.
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Post by Neß on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:10 pm

lpool1996moh wrote:No Neb that's a maping issue and the game is intended for pad (DS4?) 
I wasn't serious.
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:20 pm

Sarcasm on the internet blows dude.
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Post by BladedgeX on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:29 pm

That really depends if any of characters would have a loop or combo that long. Not even Kat can ToD into her Lvl 2 without the help of a Ring Out in Alden's Tower. And Ring Outs in this game act as kills rather than teleporting them back to the arena. I do know that PaRappa has a loop that requires a wall and it's actually pretty hard to do. I only witness Smash and Crash doing it yesterday all the way up to lvl 3 on a friendly match and he dropped it the first attempt he got.

I definitely believe that DP would do his best not to overlook any loops.

As for your guys suggestion for Dark Blast, I definitely see it as a good Horizontal recovery super however, Jak does already have great mobility options. It would be pretty great as a ground lvl 2 since it is much more powerful than Dark Bomb.
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:44 pm

Like i said Dividing the supers into Recovery and Spike and giving them to characters who need them in that area. As Jak is the one who has given off this discussion lets go with him. Jak has great recovery already even without any Smash variation. How ever he has no way to spike outside of the Wave Concussor which is not a good spike (Although its great for Aerial Pressure). Therefore giving the aerial Dark bomb Spiking properties seems obvious to me, although from a flavour perspective it may be better to just make the Path of it lethal, with a blast at the end. 

Again this theoretical Spike Super which is deadly would definitely be hard to pull off. for an interesting addition, how about allowing Spike Supers to be countered by Recovery Supers? say...Mewtwo (Who we seem to agree will have a recovery super, as it make sense from a flavour perspective) counters Ratchets Sopike after being hit with HIS level 2 Killing Ratchet not him. i mean its near impossible to counter a theoretical aerial super the way it is now, so this makes it more risk/reward and means that ToDs are non existent on all characters no matter what. Another key feature for this is my concept that Spike Aerial Supers only kill when the foe hits the ground or leaves the screen for +3. This allows for a decent counter window (I'm just spitballing but it sounds good)

As for Jak, the theoretical Dark Bomb imo should Kill/Spike (If you can make it work) all who he hits on his way down and then cause a blast which is bigger the higher up you are. it makes sense to me as Jak can get to some serious heights but its not a good idea and its a nice "Fuck You" option after a burst. 

this is a great concept. i love it.
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Post by Neß on Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:20 pm

Why would every character need a spike? Not everyone has a spike in Smash.
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:33 pm

smash isn't exactly balanced. thats why. for balancing purposes.
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Post by Neß on Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:06 pm

Well crap. If Meta Knight gets a spike we're all f*****


Ah OK. I actually just checked and technically the only characters without a meteor smash/spike are Meta Knight, and Squirtle, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue to give them one. Especially because Meta Knight is getting nerfed.
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Post by lpool1996moh on Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:18 pm

I'm not sure. in the all stars system he is the unholy offspring of Kats mobility and Priority with Raidens Utility and pressure. Basically busted balls mang. He needs alot of editing. Meta Knight is one of the few smash characters i'm sure will do well in the Pasbr System.


Interesting. i thought more than that would lack em. regardless with the PASBR style edits they may not keep them......
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Post by this_is_marko on Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:22 pm

yeah, i'm convinced that ivysaur has the most satisfying spike in the game haha
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Post by Neß on Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:32 pm

lpool1996moh wrote:I'm not sure. in the all stars system he is the unholy offspring of Kats mobility and Priority with Raidens Utility and pressure. Basically busted balls mang. He needs alot of editing. Meta Knight is one of the few smash characters i'm sure will do well in the Pasbr System.


Interesting. i thought more than that would lack em. regardless with the PASBR style edits they may not keep them......
Granted, some of them are ground moves, or can never really be used competitively (ex. Peach's down tilt, Lucario's Aura Storm), but yeah, the only characters to not have a spike not counting a footstool jump are Meta Knight, Wario and Squirtle.
Here's a list.  (Yes, I'm aware that a spike=/=a meteor smash, but spikes technically don't exist in Brawl, so it would be easier to just retool the Brawl veteran's meteors to be spikes or something.)
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