Should Weapons Ban be legal

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Post by sdprimetime33 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:08 pm

Do you guys agree with the government on banning assault weapons? I for sure do not! Lets debate
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Post by lpool1996moh on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:52 pm

Well it works fine over here without them. I don't see the hubbub. Our police forces have no firearms for crying out loud.
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Post by DP on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:19 pm

I could care less about banning assault weapons, I draw issue with how people want guns to be sold and such. The common opinion on the issue simply won't work. Obama's opinions on gun control are 50/50 to me, but at least he nails some of the issues/factors that the rest of the population ignores. As far as assault weapons go, lowering clip size is fine by me (even if it only actually deters excess shots with a 5-10 second reload at the very longest), and outright banning them isn't necessary IMO. Even if they were banned, people who would still want them will get them regardless.

As a whole, I really disagree with the current gun debate at its core; I said the very day of the Sandy Hook shooting that people shouldn't let their emotions override their logic, but I knew that would happen anyway. This anger is directed at the wrong place, because these weren't even illegally-obtained guns or guns bought by this mentally unstable man. This was simply the theft of a responsible gun owner's guns which were then used to kill. Screening for firearms permits to see if housemates are mentally stable enough to have guns in the same home is possible, but most people are too concerned with blaming the object, not the person in charge, and going on a witch hunt like always happens after a tragedy (the same's happening to video games, movies, and entertainment as a whole, too). They're too concerned with outright banning them, which will never happen in the United States.
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Post by sdprimetime33 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:38 pm

DP27 wrote:I could care less about banning assault weapons, I draw issue with how people want guns to be sold and such. The common opinion on the issue simply won't work. Obama's opinions on gun control are 50/50 to me, but at least he nails some of the issues/factors that the rest of the population ignores. As far as assault weapons go, lowering clip size is fine by me (even if it only actually deters excess shots with a 5-10 second reload at the very longest), and outright banning them isn't necessary IMO. Even if they were banned, people who would still want them will get them regardless.

As a whole, I really disagree with the current gun debate at its core; I said the very day of the Sandy Hook shooting that people shouldn't let their emotions override their logic, but I knew that would happen anyway. This anger is directed at the wrong place, because these weren't even illegally-obtained guns or guns bought by this mentally unstable man. This was simply the theft of a responsible gun owner's guns which were then used to kill. Screening for firearms permits to see if housemates are mentally stable enough to have guns in the same home is possible, but most people are too concerned with blaming the object, not the person in charge, and going on a witch hunt like always happens after a tragedy (the same's happening to video games, movies, and entertainment as a whole, too). They're too concerned with outright banning them, which will never happen in the United States.

That was well said. But i only take issue with the government trying to yet again take some of our freedoms. It's impossible to stop things like this from happening. Like what if a group of cops decide to go postal? Do we take guns away from them? The guns weren't the issue at all.
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Post by sdprimetime33 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:39 pm

lpool1996moh wrote:Well it works fine over here without them. I don't see the hubbub. Our police forces have no firearms for crying out loud.

Well isn't everything all dandy with you! Congrats, too bad our country doesn't work like yours...
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Post by DP on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:47 pm

I can agree with that, sd. (Would you prefer sd or primetime, for future reference?) Though I personally feel that it's the people trying to take away freedoms that they don't like more than the government (though Obama definitely tried appealing to those people by having kids in the room when he made that speech about gun control, an act that I did NOT agree with at all). It's in the same boat as gay marriage: People feel entitled to have the country run by exactly what they believe in, when personal or moral beliefs should never dictate anything political. It's people like these that make me almost agree with Hobbes' opinions, because most people know nothing about what's good for the country. (Given, my saying this can put me in the very same category that I just described, but I think you see my point enough that the hypocrisy is justified at least somewhat.)
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Post by sdprimetime33 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:04 pm

DP27 wrote:I can agree with that, sd. (Would you prefer sd or primetime, for future reference?) Though I personally feel that it's the people trying to take away freedoms that they don't like more than the government (though Obama definitely tried appealing to those people by having kids in the room when he made that speech about gun control, an act that I did NOT agree with at all). It's in the same boat as gay marriage: People feel entitled to have the country run by exactly what they believe in, when personal or moral beliefs should never dictate anything political. It's people like these that make me almost agree with Hobbes' opinions, because most people know nothing about what's good for the country. (Given, my saying this can put me in the very same category that I just described, but I think you see my point enough that the hypocrisy is justified at least somewhat.)

Sd is fine, thats what my chat group calls me! Wink But I 100% understand what you are saying. Like who's to say this or that is the right way to do things.
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Post by Chaosdreams on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:44 pm

The logic in America is mind numbing. And I'll simply point out why I think it is when it pertains to guns. Now, I won't be sourcing anything, so it'll mostly be my thoughts and some paraphrasing.

So, in America, you can get a gun before you are allowed to legally drink. Alright, I guess that's fine. Everyone has a right to carry a gun apparently. So be it. However, semi-automatic rifles? Are you kidding me? Is someone going to come into your house, and your aim is so atrocious that you need to unload a clip into them, most likely killing them? It's idiotic. These weapons are only used to cause tragedies.

And this is where it gets better.

With each gun related crime that comes across the news, a shooting in a school, a theater, a park, anywhere, and if it's big enough, you know what happens? And bare with me, this makes me laugh, they claim it's caused by "video games."

So, apparently having the deadly weapons which do nothing but promote violence are easily accessible, but when shit hits the fan, instead of admitting the problem, it's thrown at something else.

There is not one single damn reason to have a semi-automatic or a fully automatic rifle or gun of any sort. A gun on its own is pushing it. And as people cry out "You can't take away our freedom!" my answer is simple, what's freedom without a life?

If someone is going to go postal, having a gun of your own will not make anything better. If you are in an open environment and things go to hell, I'd like to think any other means of a weapon is more suitable than unloading a clip of projectiles that might only make things worse.

Cowards with weapons, tsk.

Note: I mean no hatred towards people, or Americans as a whole. I simply find the logic behind the need for everyone to own a firearm, let alone a semi-automatic one, utterly atrocious. You can only be so stupid before it's maddening.
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Post by sdprimetime33 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:14 pm

Weapons aren't the issue. Irresponsible people who use them for anything other than sport is the issue. But since it's legal or has been legal to buy semi-auto guns, people are entitled to have what they want. You can't really argue that. I'd rather people buy guns than alcohol. They don't ban alcohol even though there are drunk driving accidents more frequently than deaths by assault weapons.
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Post by CalDW19940 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:53 pm

sdprimetime33 wrote:Weapons aren't the issue. Irresponsible people who use them for anything other than sport is the issue. But since it's legal or has been legal to buy semi-auto guns, people are entitled to have what they want. You can't really argue that. I'd rather people buy guns than alcohol. They don't ban alcohol even though there are drunk driving accidents more frequently than deaths by assault weapons.

You can't drink alcohol and intend to have an accident but someone who buys a gun and shoots someone by choice didn't do it by accident. Alcohols primary use is not to inflict harm upon others but a guns primary function is.

I don't think banning them is the right answer but I think the US government seriously needs to reconsider it's legislations and be more stricter on who can have a fire arm so that not every headcase can get his hands on one and go shooting up innocent people just because they could.

A nutcase is less likely to harm multiple people without a firearm than they are with fully auto weapons and grenades.

People need to earn the right to have a fire arm and if they do not deserve it or have intent on using it for the wrong reasons then that right should be stripped from them. Don't ban the weapon just make it stricter on who can have one so easily.
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Post by DP on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:40 pm

Well, full auto weapons are completely illegal for commercial use, and I don't recall grenades being legal either. If somebody gets those, there's no way they'd be following the gun laws anyway. Otherwise, point taken.
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Post by CalDW19940 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:16 pm

DP27 wrote:Well, full auto weapons are completely illegal for commercial use, and I don't recall grenades being legal either. If somebody gets those, there's no way they'd be following the gun laws anyway. Otherwise, point taken.

Sorry got my auto's mixed up, and I mentioned grenades like the ones used by the nutcase involved in the Dark Knight Rises tragedy and not explosives like fragmentation grenades.
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Post by quackerzacher on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:33 pm

I'll put it this way, it would be bat shit crazy for anyone anywhere else in the world to have an assault rifle
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Post by Razer_Shpex on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:00 am

The weapon laws are fine the way they are. Besides, a ban on guns is a violation of our 2nd Amendment right to bare arms to protect ourselves for foreign and domestic threats. If anything, the improper use of guns comes from the lack of knowledge of a gun. In any case, suggesting a ban on guns based the phrase "guns kill people" is by far the most ignorant thing ever. In reality, guns don't kill people. People kill people and we have been killing each since the dawn of man before guns existed.
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Post by Chaosdreams on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:18 am

Razer_Shpex wrote:The weapon laws are fine the way they are. Besides, a ban on guns is a violation of our 2nd Amendment right to bare arms to protect ourselves for foreign and domestic threats. If anything, the improper use of guns comes from the lack of knowledge of a gun. In any case, suggesting a ban on guns based the phrase "guns kill people" is by far the most ignorant thing ever. In reality, guns don't kill people. People kill people and we have been killing each since the dawn of man before guns existed.

1. A law is not fine if it's clearly having huge repercussions.

2. The "it infringes on my rights" is utter nonsense. There's a reason police and the military exist. If someone from foreign soil is going to invade you then having a gun with no training is pointless. Which brings me to the point that people who carry a firearm (and it shouldn't be a semi automatic) should have training with it and also undergo a mental health exam.

3. Improper use being what exactly, killing people in schools, theaters? I'm sorry, but if the user had more knowledge of how to use the gun, we would simply see more dead. Hence with my second point, a mental health exam being given. If you want a gun that merely imposes injury + death, then prove you are stable enough to carry said burden.

4. People do kill people, but it is the tool in which they use that shapes them. If a person uses the gun, the gun becomes a part of them, and that bullet that fires from the gun and kills the individual is not just the gun or the person, but both. So to fix that issue, you need to look into who receives a gun, and how to limit those who obtain one.

5. Back in the dawn of man, killing wasn't done by pulling one a simple trigger and killing innocent lives. Psychopaths and murderers will always exist, but your beloved gun law makes it quite easy for them to win unlike if they had a sword or a club.

Anyways I'm simply using what you said as an example. I will never understand nor accept the "it's a part of my freedom" as a reason to not look into changing the way the gun law works.

Moreover, people will always die, but that doesn't mean making it as easy as possible is a good idea. I do not think an outright ban of guns will have much of a difference over limiting what guns are sold and to whom. So the action I'd think would be best is limiting who gets a gun.

Course I live in a world of logic that isn't governed by greed and the inability to change. So when something that has a huge profit is questioned, well, we begin to see how powerful money is.
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Post by Count Mario on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:40 am

Just to clarify on your example with number 3 Chaos, for both shootings the murderers obtained their guns illegally. Just wanted to clarify.
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Post by Chaosdreams on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:45 am

Count Mario wrote:Just to clarify on your example with number 3 Chaos, for both shootings the murderers obtained their guns illegally. Just wanted to clarify.

There's always a way, my point is to not just make it as easy as possible. My points still apply, but thank you. I also used those places not as a specific location, but general example. There's more than one school that's been shot up.
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Post by Count Mario on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:48 am

Of course. I in no way meant to give a flaw in your logic or anything. I just felt like clarifying for any who thick those situations should count as examples of people who have passed by America's gun control system fairly and still managed to kill instead of actually obtaining them illegally.
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Post by Razer_Shpex on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:53 am

To start, the police and military aren't to be trusted because their pay-check comes from the government. They won't protect you if they're a domestic threat to you. To include more than just them but a police officer or soldier isn't always there protect you. More specifically, the 2nd Amendment exists so U.S Citizens can primarily protect themselves from their government if it were to ever step out of line. The argument of guns should be ban falls on all fronts and has virtually no weight to begin with. Since, it's mainly lesser intelligent people arguing the view that guns should be ban. As for the killing itself, a well hidden knife is all you need to kill 50 people if done right. As opposed to a gun which is much easier to be discovered with, even with a silencer. I would say that only around 7% of the U.S knows how to properly own, operate and take care of a gun.
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Post by 0CTAVE on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:25 am

Chaosdreams wrote:
Razer_Shpex wrote:The weapon laws are fine the way they are. Besides, a ban on guns is a violation of our 2nd Amendment right to bare arms to protect ourselves for foreign and domestic threats. If anything, the improper use of guns comes from the lack of knowledge of a gun. In any case, suggesting a ban on guns based the phrase "guns kill people" is by far the most ignorant thing ever. In reality, guns don't kill people. People kill people and we have been killing each since the dawn of man before guns existed.

1. A law is not fine if it's clearly having huge repercussions.

2. The "it infringes on my rights" is utter nonsense. There's a reason police and the military exist. If someone from foreign soil is going to invade you then having a gun with no training is pointless. Which brings me to the point that people who carry a firearm (and it shouldn't be a semi automatic) should have training with it and also undergo a mental health exam.

3. Improper use being what exactly, killing people in schools, theaters? I'm sorry, but if the user had more knowledge of how to use the gun, we would simply see more dead. Hence with my second point, a mental health exam being given. If you want a gun that merely imposes injury + death, then prove you are stable enough to carry said burden.

4. People do kill people, but it is the tool in which they use that shapes them. If a person uses the gun, the gun becomes a part of them, and that bullet that fires from the gun and kills the individual is not just the gun or the person, but both. So to fix that issue, you need to look into who receives a gun, and how to limit those who obtain one.

5. Back in the dawn of man, killing wasn't done by pulling one a simple trigger and killing innocent lives. Psychopaths and murderers will always exist, but your beloved gun law makes it quite easy for them to win unlike if they had a sword or a club.

Anyways I'm simply using what you said as an example. I will never understand nor accept the "it's a part of my freedom" as a reason to not look into changing the way the gun law works.

Moreover, people will always die, but that doesn't mean making it as easy as possible is a good idea. I do not think an outright ban of guns will have much of a difference over limiting what guns are sold and to whom. So the action I'd think would be best is limiting who gets a gun.

Course I live in a world of logic that isn't governed by greed and the inability to change. So when something that has a huge profit is questioned, well, we begin to see how powerful money is.
This...
Honestly sometimes I question the mental health of my own country.

There's obviously something wrong, why not try and change it?
Those not wanting to change are honestly acting like kids who don't want to co-operate and help find a solution together.

There has to be some action taken whether it be to ban them completely or have limits/test like Chaos stated. There's been more shootings in schools and even though they haven't been "Mass Shootings" they're still shootings and innocent people have gotten hurt. You can use the argument that "emotions" are playing with my judgement but greed and power is playing with the opposing side.

I don't understand what the big deal is about putting limits but whatever...
Razer_Shpex wrote:To start, the police and military aren't to be trusted because their pay-check comes from the government. They won't protect you if they're a domestic threat to you. To include more than just them but a police officer or soldier isn't always there protect you. More specifically, the 2nd Amendment exists so U.S Citizens can primarily protect themselves from their government if it were to ever step out of line. The argument of guns should be ban falls on all fronts and has virtually no weight to begin with. Since, it's mainly lesser intelligent people arguing the view that guns should be ban. As for the killing itself, a well hidden knife is all you need to kill 50 people if done right. As opposed to a gun which is much easier to be discovered with, even with a silencer. I would say that only around 7% of the U.S knows how to properly own, operate and take care of a gun.
Lesser intelligent people? We're not going to start insulting certain groups of people because they don't agree with you, watch what yous say.
Conspiracy theories aside(Oh the irony), you can hide a gun as easily as a knife.
Do you even have to hide the gun? No. That's the last thing on their mind.
A knife if done right? You don't even have to think when using a gun, just spray the whole place and you've already killed dozens of people.

If only 7% of our country knows "how to properly own, operate and take care of a gun" and we have them so easily obtainable...Well that just screams SOMETHING'S WRONG!
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Post by Chaosdreams on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:38 am

Razer_Shpex wrote:To start, the police and military aren't to be trusted because their pay-check comes from the government. They won't protect you if they're a domestic threat to you. To include more than just them but a police officer or soldier isn't always there protect you. More specifically, the 2nd Amendment exists so U.S Citizens can primarily protect themselves from their government if it were to ever step out of line. The argument of guns should be ban falls on all fronts and has virtually no weight to begin with. Since, it's mainly lesser intelligent people arguing the view that guns should be ban. As for the killing itself, a well hidden knife is all you need to kill 50 people if done right. As opposed to a gun which is much easier to be discovered with, even with a silencer. I would say that only around 7% of the U.S knows how to properly own, operate and take care of a gun.

1. Labeling each individual on the merits of money is understandable, but a poor outlook. There is something known as justice.

2. True, they spend time focusing on the biggest problems, but smaller ones just as dangerous can slip through. So in that case, if you aren't insane, and know how to aim and shoot, a semi-automatic rifle isn't needed. You are not in the mafia, you are not a battle hardened ex member of a military unit, you are a civilian. If you live in a pile of fear and can only rest knowing that a gun that could kill countless people on a bad day rests near you, well that's just sickening and it's saddening to know people are that scared.

3. Rise against the government, take them down. Sure, pure anarchy could easily be started with an ample amount of guns, but the actual change would come from those with authority + power. Namely, other countries. I mean, America invades those in the Middle east, so, if America is toppling over and putting the world in danger, what's to stop the world from stepping in? Those in the army from other countries?

4. Banning guns won't do anything, agreed.

5. Intelligence derives from reasoning and logic, as fear governs those to want to hold a gun, it also makes others think guns being rid from the earth means of safety. The answer lies in a balance, one in which does not currently exist in America. But if the "lesser" side of intelligence does have a side, it's with those who claim they need a weapon "just incase my government turns on me."

6. A knife, in one go, with a certain amount of time? Ya, if you are a specialist. A coward who's snapped or become broken with despair doesn't generally have training to stab and kill 50 people successfully before being taken down. There's defense and luck taken into account when dealing with a melee weapon. There's not much you can do against a bullet. Additionally the culprit does not have the skill (in most cases) to use stealth to do it over a period of time without being caught. A gun however, especially a semi-automatic simply requires a direction and a finger.

7. That's saddening, considering how many have access to one.

Note:
This is not directed at you, but merely your points. I respond while visualizing the response being given to a group of individuals who share the same collective thought that opposes mine. So in the instance that it might seem like an insult or a jab, it is not intentional. Have a good night/morning.
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Post by quackerzacher on Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:49 am

from what i understood from a Q&A with the USA's ambassador to New Zealand american laws are like 100x harder to change than in other countries
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Post by Kiwi on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:25 pm

That is true, Quacks. It's mainly because of the whole two party thing, because if one party wants something, the other will be as obtrusive as possible, no matter what the other party actually wants.
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Post by sdprimetime33 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:41 pm

CalDW19940 wrote:
sdprimetime33 wrote:Weapons aren't the issue. Irresponsible people who use them for anything other than sport is the issue. But since it's legal or has been legal to buy semi-auto guns, people are entitled to have what they want. You can't really argue that. I'd rather people buy guns than alcohol. They don't ban alcohol even though there are drunk driving accidents more frequently than deaths by assault weapons.

You can't drink alcohol and intend to have an accident but someone who buys a gun and shoots someone by choice didn't do it by accident. Alcohols primary use is not to inflict harm upon others but a guns primary function is.

I don't think banning them is the right answer but I think the US government seriously needs to reconsider it's legislations and be more stricter on who can have a fire arm so that not every headcase can get his hands on one and go shooting up innocent people just because they could.

A nutcase is less likely to harm multiple people without a firearm than they are with fully auto weapons and grenades.

People need to earn the right to have a fire arm and if they do not deserve it or have intent on using it for the wrong reasons then that right should be stripped from them. Don't ban the weapon just make it stricter on who can have one so easily.

Nutcase is a very vague statement? Have you seen Law Abiding Citizen? Well if you haven't I recommend you watch it. The guy there murdered people but he wasnt a nutcase. You can't automatically just call someone crazy or a nutcase if they do stuff like that. And you can drink alcohol and make very dumb decisions as many people have. I can make an argument that alcohol is more dangerous than guns.

--

So if we ban guns, is that really going to stop people from getting them? Marijuana is illegal (in most states) and it's still ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. And to have a mental test is just ridiculous. They can pass the exam and still shoot up people. And I have to agree with noc (never in my lifetime did i think id do that...) but the 2nd amendment is there for protection against our government. But slayer, I have to respectfully disagree with your point. Why do we have to be like children if we believe what we believe. Since when has this nation made a decision TOGETHER? You have to be realistic here, we will never "COME TOGETHER" on a decision.

Do I think guns are necessary, NOT REALLY! I'd rather the way of the samurai actually. But all bs aside, killing will always happen. Whether it's set up by the government to push policy or by individual motives. There's no real solution to it.
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Should Weapons Ban be legal Empty Re: Should Weapons Ban be legal

Post by CalDW19940 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:21 pm

sdprimetime33 wrote:
CalDW19940 wrote:
sdprimetime33 wrote:Weapons aren't the issue. Irresponsible people who use them for anything other than sport is the issue. But since it's legal or has been legal to buy semi-auto guns, people are entitled to have what they want. You can't really argue that. I'd rather people buy guns than alcohol. They don't ban alcohol even though there are drunk driving accidents more frequently than deaths by assault weapons.

You can't drink alcohol and intend to have an accident but someone who buys a gun and shoots someone by choice didn't do it by accident. Alcohols primary use is not to inflict harm upon others but a guns primary function is.

I don't think banning them is the right answer but I think the US government seriously needs to reconsider it's legislations and be more stricter on who can have a fire arm so that not every headcase can get his hands on one and go shooting up innocent people just because they could.

A nutcase is less likely to harm multiple people without a firearm than they are with fully auto weapons and grenades.

People need to earn the right to have a fire arm and if they do not deserve it or have intent on using it for the wrong reasons then that right should be stripped from them. Don't ban the weapon just make it stricter on who can have one so easily.

Nutcase is a very vague statement? Have you seen Law Abiding Citizen? Well if you haven't I recommend you watch it. The guy there murdered people but he wasnt a nutcase. You can't automatically just call someone crazy or a nutcase if they do stuff like that. And you can drink alcohol and make very dumb decisions as many people have. I can make an argument that alcohol is more dangerous than guns.

--

So if we ban guns, is that really going to stop people from getting them? Marijuana is illegal (in most states) and it's still ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. And to have a mental test is just ridiculous. They can pass the exam and still shoot up people. And I have to agree with noc (never in my lifetime did i think id do that...) but the 2nd amendment is there for protection against our government. But slayer, I have to respectfully disagree with your point. Why do we have to be like children if we believe what we believe. Since when has this nation made a decision TOGETHER? You have to be realistic here, we will never "COME TOGETHER" on a decision.

Do I think guns are necessary, NOT REALLY! I'd rather the way of the samurai actually. But all bs aside, killing will always happen. Whether it's set up by the government to push policy or by individual motives. There's no real solution to it.

Just because murder occurs doesn't mean you shouldn't try to decrease it's numbers.

Ever seen SAW? Jigsaw wasn't insane but he's certainly not got the morality to not kill a human being.

Alcohol can have multiple effects but that is only due to the individual exceeding their limit and accidental and it's effects can be long terms but a gun only has one purpose. That and people under drinking age can legally get a firearm capable of killing or harming anyone they wish multiple times yet can't get a can of beer...hmmm
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