Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

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Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:42 pm

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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:49 pm

Oh hey, it's finally out. I'll probably give it a watch. 

He recorded footage for this months ago, though. Game Grumps really does sap their time and energy. It really shouldn't sap his, though, since he only appears in 55% of the videos (and profits on all of them). I'd like to know if Danny's channel has suffered since he joined; if not, he is a champion, since he's in nearly 100% of videos.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:17 pm

You should, it was a really good watch.  Although, if you're a really big OoT fan you should be warned that he talks shit about it the entire video.  His arguments are well justified though.

I haven't watched GameGrumps since JonTron left the show.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by Piratemankelly on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:19 pm

It's a half hour long?

Okay.


Edit: Alright, watched it. 

His disdain for 3D Zelda is clear. I understand his negative points about the 3D combat, but frankly I think it was a natural progression from the old formula to the new. The waiting kinda' sucks, yeah, but if every enemy was Iron Knuckle, the game wouldn't even just be hard at one point, but me flat out unfair. The reason the Iron Knuckle was set as a rare miniboss was because he functioned exactly like a Darknut in the first Zelda; powerful, and somewhat random. But due to the nature of 3D, you can't have awareness of them.  


As for the "roadblocks," I suppose I get it. I felt the same way with WW, but at the same time it's a lot of worldbuilding elements. His complaining about the Zelda cutscene is dumb because it explains the story.

Majora's Mask's ambiguity fit well with the story, because they at least told you a story for you to fill in. If OoT's was more ambiguous, then it just wouldn't work. Basically, without that cutscene, you'd have no idea why you're doing dungeons or even why the main villain is important. Granted, they could have done it differently, but as far as the context of the game is concerned, it's much better with than without it.

For his rant on SS... no. Just no. Most every problem he complained about with combat and a lot of other stuff that I forget (honestly, with a 30 min video, I can't really remember all my disagreements) was fixed in SS. The bosses and using the dungeon item doesn't apply to Ghiraham (any of the times you fight him), or the Moldarach. And... you know, screw it.


As for the exploration aspect, I hated in in the first game. I really, honestly hate the first Zelda. Not as much as the second, but I still hate it. I get that you want to explore, but it's really just a "where the fuck do I go?" Which, if I do recall, he's complained about on dozens of Grumps games in the past. It's just his nostalgia and memory of where to go that makes his opinion so positive. The "satisfaction you get for figuring it out for yourself" is BS. 

Actually, that brings me back to SS. He bitched about the Dowsing mechanic, but if they wanted to really encourage exploring, they wouldn't have even given it to you. It would've forced you to look for yourself, which he (and everyone else) would have no doubt hated, despite matching the first game perfectly. Of course, that's aside from the fact that they could have just not had those in the first place.

Come to think of it, the same can be said about the eye-switches he bitched about. You need to explore the area in order to find them, and oftentimes need to solve some sort of other puzzle to get to them. A lot of times, they aren't so much the obstacle as the objective.

And lastly, the thing I hated most was his nitpickiness about the treasure chest and the "suspense." Going and getting the Big Key, then running back is the same exact type of tedious backtracking and basically getting in your way that he complains about on several occasions. I don't understand how you could be totally compelled and in suspense by having to run all the way back to the item chest but absolutely hate having to wait through Zelda's variation of a drumroll.


However, I agreed a ton with his praise for LBW, which means that I do at least somewhat agree with his opinions, just not to the same degree. However, a lot of his complaints still match up to that game as well.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by Piratemankelly on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:17 pm

DP wrote:Oh hey, it's finally out. I'll probably give it a watch. 

He recorded footage for this months ago, though. Game Grumps really does sap their time and energy. It really shouldn't sap his, though, since he only appears in 55% of the videos (and profits on all of them). I'd like to know if Danny's channel has suffered since he joined; if not, he is a champion, since he's in nearly 100% of videos.


Also, I figure I'd mention... not really. Danny's out a lot of the time, leaving Arin to fill in for him on Steam Train. So Arin isn't on too many fewer Grump + Train videos than Danny. Of course, that's only considering the past year as opposed to when it was him and Jon, since that's an unfair comparison.

Besides, Arin's also the business head behind the group, and his profits are contributed to both him and Suzy's work. A lot of them do work outside of Grumps.

As for Ninja Sex Party, they have videos up every few months. As far as I can tell, they've slowed, but I didn't now of them until Grumps, and a lot of his absence in the past while is likely because of Star Bomb.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:25 pm

Well we all knew he hated OoT; that was in GG's first episode. Sequelitis is usually Arin bitching about a game he doesn't like, with the exception of his nostalgia boner over MMX. 

I'll be watching it when I get off of work, but I knew when I watched part of his recording stream that he would be biased as shit since he continued uttering "I FUCKING HATE THIS GAME" throughout

And his slight increase back to being in maybe at best half of the videos is probably only attributed to Danny actually wanting to continue his own shit.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:21 am

So I'm halfway in and I noticed something. 

He's padding the argument. It's not LttP vs OoT, it's a two on one with Zelda 1 tagging in. He uses Zelda 1 as an example of why LttP is good. That's so outside of what the series used to be about that it's not even funny.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:31 am

I thought it was fair and his points were completely valid.  I remember having a save file for OoC that got deleted.  I got pretty far into the game as well, and after it got deleted there was no way I was gonna go through all of the tedious 'A' press scenes again.  As well as go through some of the very tedious 'adventuring' they want you to do.  In Ocarina of Time it feels like everything you do is a fetch quest.  Example; Go to this guy, obtain quest objective, go to someone else, retrieve objective, go back to same guy.  Ocarina of Time is a very tedious game to play through along with the bad design choices that he pointed out.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:19 am

I don't see how two on one is fair. I have several problems with OoT. That doesn't mean that I should point out two games in my example that one game is better than it. His points are somewhat valid, yes, if generally whiny for the sake of being whiny. 

Plus he doesn't really know shit about game design. That's a problem with the series in general, that he talks as if he understands the innards of games when he's never written code in his life. Look at MMX: "You move right and the game shows you that! 10/10!" He just tries to make himself sound smarter by "analyzing" his own opinions on the game's mechanics. 

OoT is an entirely tedious game nowadays, yes, but does that really beat out the tedium of searching blindly for a breakable wall? No, so don't fucking put either game on a pedestal. I don't see the logic behind that. And I don't see how you can be a Zelda fan if you only acknowledge three games as decent or better, especially if you've never been shown to appreciate any one of the previous six games.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by Piratemankelly on Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:35 am

He has some valid points, but basically blows them way out of proportion in order to make OoT look like shit.

He really used Zelda 1 more than he did LttP. It would've been more fair to call the video "Zelda: 2d v 3d," even though he only shat on OoT and SS. To be fair, he did give LttP grief at first for, you guessed it, not being Zelda 1.


His nostalgia boner for that game is incredible. Like I said, the adventuring aspect is cool and all until you find yourself wandering around the map going "the fuck do I do?" See, back when he was a kid, he enjoyed that and felt satisfied with it.

Now that he's an adult, were to to play it, never having played it before, he' be infuriated that the game gives you absolutely no direction on A. what to do, B. what the hell is even happening, and C. why you should care.


It's all well and good to like the adventuring aspect, but when we all clearly know that you hate it for just about every other game, it becomes a null point when trying to use it against OoT.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:19 am

Actually, EgoRaptor took classes for video game programming in college.  He states this in one of the Aladin SNES videos of Game Grumps.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by Piratemankelly on Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:43 am

1. I knew that.
2. That's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
3. Going to school for something doesn't mean you're good at or even understand something.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:01 am

He also dropped out of high school for animation and as far as I know never finished college, so any classes would be programming as in "make a clone game" or just very basic programming things. Intro classes, essentially. And even he still dropped out of that too. Lucky for him, newgrounds got big at the right time, otherwise he'd be flipping burgers.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:12 am

Well, I dropped out of high school too. :/
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by Piratemankelly on Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:02 pm

Dropping out works for some people.

But then other people see the success of a handful of dropouts and think to themselves "I can do that too," then they can't. It just happened to work out for Arin. Not that there's no amount of work involved, but even still.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:06 pm

Aside from the game I'm working on, I plan on doing some Twitch live streaming for LoL.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by Piratemankelly on Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:55 pm

I don't want to stomp on your dream or anything, but come one now.

Streaming LoL on Twitch? Do you know how many people already do that? Good luck, man, but don't expect to garner a fanbase from that. I know a guy that literally does nothing all day but play LoL and watch other people play it. Youtube Let's Plays and Twitch Speedrunners are one thing, but Streaming LoL on Twitch is a' whole 'nother demon.

As for the game you're making, when you have a playable build I'd be interested in testing it out. Again, there's already A TON of Indie developers making games, so you have some stiff competition, but there's a chance you can make a little crowd-gathering.



You're still going out on a flimsy limb, which I both respect you for and also wish to berate you for.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:35 pm

I know how many people stream that game on Twtich, and that one is definitely gonna be hard.

As far as Indie games go, this one should be a lot easier.  Very rarely a good indie game comes up ever, I know I can make a game many times better than games such as Super Meat Boy, Braid, Fez, or Minecraft.  All which, suck donkey balls.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:06 pm

Your first step as an indie developer should be to get humble. It doesn't matter what YOU like nearly as much as what everybody else does. If you think the most popular and acclaimed indie games suck, and put your skills above them, then you'll be in for one hell of a wakeup call. Even something as simple as procedural generation can take a long time to figure out and get right. Super Meat Boy's level design was constantly tested to make sure it worked right and was fun. I can go on with this. There's a reason Phil Fish is hated; it's his game that people care about, not him, and he believes he's better than other developers because of that. Take a cue from Sony and Microsoft, and play nice so that people don't have a reason not to buy your game before they even see it (I'll never buy Fez, for Example because Fish is a cock)
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:24 pm

There is no words that will ever convince me that any of those games are good.  Ever.  People hate him because he arrogant, which he is.  His game sucks and he should feel bad.  However, it isn't arrogance if you can back it up.  Which know I can, and will.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:39 pm

Again, it doesn't matter if you think they're good or not. If you wanna make a hit indie game, you have to learn from the ones who did it best. And insulting an entire artstyle on top of some of the most popular and renowned indie games of all time is going to lose you so many possible sales off the bat, and from the exact core crowd that you'll need to make your game sell. RPGs don't sell too easily to casual players. 

And you definitely have a lot to learn, so don't assume your game development skills are up to par yet. After all, you found Ratchet to be overpowered in PSAS because of logic completely counter to how fighting games work.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:55 pm

If it doesn't matter what I say, then it doesn't matter what my demeanor towards other games is.  According to what you said anyway.  Because, my demeanor towards them won't change at any time.  As for learning from the best, I've already done a great amount of game design learning from people such as Hideo, Shinji, Keiji, Miyamoto, etc.  You know, some of the real best in this industry.

He is overpowered, is grab is Link's on crack.  The gun he shoots on par in overpowered with Isaac's gun.  Then to top it off, the hard to dodge ratchet he throws and potentially double hit, or if it misses both hits.  You become completely open to his over powered grab.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:46 pm

You don't know anything about fighting games. Stop making a fool of yourself. Literally every mid-high level player knows how to counter each of the attacks you mentioned (only one of which is used competitively).

And they'll listen to your slander against other indie devs and lose respect for you. They don't care about your opinions, but they'll hop on a hate train if you flat-out insult other peoples' work. The same people you're insulting were inspired by that list too, you know. Your views are not definite, and most of the time they're quite far from informed. 

Nobody supports an asshole. So try your hardest not to publicly be an asshole if you want people to buy your game. Negative publicity is the most spread kind of publicity. In general, if I were you, I'd refrain from speaking publicly once you reach the point that your game gets advertised. It's like Reggie but offensive to a large portion of gamers.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by BigBox on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:16 pm

Again, according to you it doesn't matter if the game is good.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Post by DP on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:23 pm

Nice misquote. I said: it doesn't matter if you think a game is good or not. It's still an important game beloved by many. And insulting a game beloved by many is a quick way to turn people off of your games. Nobody cares what you think about a game, but if you insult it they'll flip shit. That's why I'm advising you to avoid attacking other indie games (or games in general) if you want a future in the industry. Without a Minecraft, you wouldn't have the chance to even go the indie route nowadays.
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Re: Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

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